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Bridgnorth Turntable: 2010 onwards
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Bridgnorth Turntable Reply with quote

cherry_p wrote:
boldford wrote:
Paul; whilst the installation of a turntable at Bridgnorth would answer any calls for the abolition of tender-first running for regular operations; how do you suggest we would deal with the problem of only being able to use tank engines for the heavy Santa trains that ply between Kidderminster and Arley?
Any train that didn't go the full length of the line would obviously not be able to turn. The same applies to trains such as Introductory Footplate Experiences that only do Bewdley to Bridgnorth. But that's not an argument against having the turntable at Bridgnorth for all the occasions that you could/should turn the loco.
My immediately previous post didn't argue against another turntable. It posed a question which you, cherry_p, stated the obvious i.e, a turntable at Bridgnorth would useful but hardly a complete solution to the worry that fathers_p expressed.
My earlier postings were not against a turntable anywhere, as such. They were an attempt to find balance and find a return for any money we spend.
Instead of using the quite small risk of a derailment to incite alarm perhaps a better policy might be to ensure the permanent way and vehicle weights etc are maintained correctly to virtually negate that risk. (Do we not maintain our boilers correctly to minimise the risk of explosion)?
Such a policy would allow some of those other things of importance to the well being of the SVR to be progressed sooner.
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Simon G



Joined: 13 Jul 2007
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Location: Kidderminster

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Bridgnorth Turntable Reply with quote

LMS2968 wrote:
std tank wrote:
Derailment of locos due to tender first running? Can you list the occasions this has happened on Heritage Railways please. I am interested to know.

It's happened three times on the SVR near Highley, I think, to my kowledge: 2968 twice and 7325 once.


The Pig came off at Hampton Loade in 2009 too
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Danny252



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that wasn't tender first running.
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KJEvans



Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny252 wrote:
But that wasn't tender first running.

And surely more to do with a track fault plus loco defect than anything else.
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Lench_S



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Danny252 wrote:
But that wasn't tender first running.


Did someone mention tender and track maintenance above.......?
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KJEvans wrote:
Danny252 wrote:
But that wasn't tender first running.

And surely more to do with a track fault plus loco defect than anything else.
ICBW but wasn't the track just inside tolerance but one tender wheel very very light?
If you don't maintain the stuff it's almost certainly gonna go wrong.

I seem to recall it cleared the fireman's constipation.
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Buffer



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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Location: Leamington Spa

PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
KJEvans wrote:
Danny252 wrote:
But that wasn't tender first running.

And surely more to do with a track fault plus loco defect than anything else.
ICBW but wasn't the track just inside tolerance but one tender wheel very very light?
If you don't maintain the stuff it's almost certainly gonna go wrong.

I seem to recall it cleared the fireman's constipation.


The loco was running chimney first but the tender had a broken spring at right rear and a brand new one, to the wrong specification, at left front. The result was that the right front wheel was completely unloaded. There was also a track defect at the point of derailment.
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funding of particular projects is not necessarily at the expense of other priorities and can tap alternate sources of finance. Although the option of having steam engines passing in the traditional manner would have particular appeal to members and would also improve safety, crew comfort and maintenance costs. If engines had been meant to run backwards half the time they would have been designed accordingly - dual cabs perhaps! Just not natural.

As I recall the original turntable instillation was essentially a volunteer led project, so why not start a turnable fund linked to the Bridgnorth redevelopment to create a world class heritage railway facility.

PS Would also be a novel attraction for passengers.
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Buffer



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Bridgnorth Turntable Reply with quote

fathers_p wrote:
There are a number of reasons for installing a turntable at both terminal stations, such as: reduced tyre wear, improved driver visibility on larger locos running tender first, as well as being able to run an A4 'loco first' on every trip! There is also the fact that more derailments occur when running tender locos in reverse. If a derailment were to occur on a heritage railway (that could potentially cause a ban on tender first running) we would be prepared, due to long-term strategic thinking.
The Kidderminster Turntable cost around 35K when it was installed by Geoff Longmore and his team in 1995. By contrast, the Fort William Turntable cost around ten times that amount.
Paul Fathers - Turntable Fund Secretary


This is the kind of topic that gives rise to divergent opinions as regards priority but is, without wanting to sound alarmist, an important one from the safety point of view.
It seems, from previous experience, that tender first running is more likely to lead to derailment than chimney first running. This may be a very rare occurence but is the consequence of derailment when running tender first not likely to be more severe than with a trailing tender?
As regards prevention, correct maintenance of rolling stock and track, together with proper weighing of the former, are important but there are so many variables outside our control that we can never be certain that we have covered all eventualities. There is also the paradox that as we move towards perfection in one direction, we may be moving away from it in another. A good example of this has recently been highlighted by the RAIB who have pointed out that a derailment caused by an axlebox jamming in the horn guide might not have happened if the train had been running on jointed track, rather than continuosly welded, as the shock when passing over a bad joint might have unjammed it.
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2015 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Bridgnorth Turntable Reply with quote

Buffer wrote:
. . . . . .A good example of this has recently been highlighted by the RAIB who have pointed out that a derailment caused by an axlebox jamming in the horn guide might not have happened if the train had been running on jointed track, rather than continuosly welded, as the shock when passing over a bad joint might have unjammed it.

Actually a bad example and a rather fallacious argument. Had the axle-box to horn clearance been correct the possibility of jamming would have been most unlikely in the first case.

I suggest another case of overlooking poor maintenance/construction and beating the "Turntable Now" the drum with a very dubious stick.
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Graham



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hunter_i wrote:
...so why not start a turnable fund...


fathers_p wrote:
...Paul Fathers - Turntable Fund Secretary

Keep up at the back. Very Happy
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bradleyman



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Much as I would like the SVR to be able to run all chimney first I don't think some of the efforts at sensationalism in some previous posts are helpful.

Like Brian Oldford, & nice though the idea is, there are far greater priorities on spending not least to considerably improve Bridgnorth for passengers so that it becomes an attractive place to start a visit or travel to. The current passenger figures for Bridgnorth lag far behind those starting at Kidderminster & work is needed to redress that.

There is another point though & that is that really Bridgnorth as a station is rather overshadowed by the MPD buildings and clearly that is not easy to change now. To shoe horn in a turntable as well would just increase the cramped feeling and although in theory there might just be space to do that the result may not enhance the site for the longer term.
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Graham



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Surely a turntable would make Bridgnorth a more attractive place to visit in itself if it was located within sight of the platforms.
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Buffer



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Bridgnorth Turntable Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
Buffer wrote:
. . . . . .A good example of this has recently been highlighted by the RAIB who have pointed out that a derailment caused by an axlebox jamming in the horn guide might not have happened if the train had been running on jointed track, rather than continuosly welded, as the shock when passing over a bad joint might have unjammed it.

Actually a bad example and a rather fallacious argument. Had the axle-box to horn clearance been correct the possibility of jamming would have been most unlikely in the first case.

I suggest another case of overlooking poor maintenance/construction and beating the "Turntable Now" the drum with a very dubious stick.


I have seen no suggestion that a turntable for Bridgnorth should take priority over the other major projects contained in the current redevelopment plan. Paul has put forward reasons why a second turntable should be considered at some future date and I, together with several others, have provided evidence and views that might help him and his colleagues when the time comes to put the case to the company board. It will be Paul and others who will marshal the arguments when the time is ripe and I regard all the comments that are made here purely as a means to help them in that process. We will not be called upon to make the decision whether or not the project should go ahead so there is no need to regard this discussion as competitive in any way.
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Simon G



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2015 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffer wrote:
boldford wrote:
KJEvans wrote:
Danny252 wrote:
But that wasn't tender first running.

And surely more to do with a track fault plus loco defect than anything else.
ICBW but wasn't the track just inside tolerance but one tender wheel very very light?
If you don't maintain the stuff it's almost certainly gonna go wrong.

I seem to recall it cleared the fireman's constipation.


The loco was running chimney first but the tender had a broken spring at right rear and a brand new one, to the wrong specification, at left front. The result was that the right front wheel was completely unloaded. There was also a track defect at the point of derailment.


I did have a quick check of the accident report and assumed incorrectly that as the tender had come off it was running tender first.

My bad, I apologise.
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