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Another class 20 for the SVR
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mud child



Joined: 01 Mar 2006
Posts: 453
Location: i'm now In the Night Garden

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
So your saying we have poor maintenace standards!!! HMMM Bridgnorth will love you! And the crews won't be far behind!!!! their poor too!!!


i think Bradleyman has a point. i have witnessed some very quick 'preps' in my time at both ends of the line and try as i might i cant do a loco prep in anything like the time some people achive it in.
admittitly i am relatively new to the game in my own right but have been around a long time.
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clearly there is little point in trying to answer PG Tips when he chooses to put his own sometimes rather extreme interpretation on the attempts of others to make reasoned points and infer unintended critisism of other parties in doing so.

It is a pity that this happens when a reasoned debate would otherwise be possible.

The concerns being expressed centre around the ability of the railway to meet the additional costs of these thunderbird diesels given that the need for them is occasional. The railway is not awash with surplus s.

Perhaps there has been a genuine management exercise, including analysis of risk to the public service on the number of occasions required, set against the real honest cost of thunderbird provision & comparison with the less than 100% ideal but safety net alternative of 08 use.

If this exercise has taken place and concluded that the costs are known, worthwhile and can be met then - fine.

If it has not then we should be rather worried for the future.

I find it striking that this new need does not seem to be prominent in the thoughts of other railways with not to dissimilar passenger figures to ours.
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mrmover



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Shropshire

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All this discussion about Thunderbird requirements rests on the expectation that they will be needed. In a properly run business such things are not expected, but contingencies are in place for when they happen. If the expectation was that a loco would fail, then it is pretty poor management. If there is a contingency in place, then that is good management.

The question then needs to be asked - what contingency needs to be in place. If we take things to the ultimate degree, as in the operation of the Royal Train, then there is a dedicated reserve loco available at strategic locations. At the other extreme there is the situation that there is nothing else available. The solution lies somewhere in the middle, with a reserve loco (of whatever power) available for a one loco service (not that the SVR runs such services) or the ability to reorganise schedules to provide suitable assistance. A Thunderbird would be useful if we were running a myriad of trains over a network of lines covering a large geographical area, say, stretching from Liverpool to Gloucester.

Let's be real. The SVR operates a single line some 16 miles in length, with no branches. The service is operated by locomotives, all of which undergo maintenance and repair to a high standard and in-service failures are a rare occurrence; maybe half a dozen a year.

The provision of a Thunderbird locomotive simply cannot be justified, let alone one at either end of the line PLUS a third for cover for when one of the others is out for maintenance. We already have ample resources to deal with any unfortunate locomotive failure, and the experience to ensure that our paying customers are not too inconvenienced.

Trying to justify another Class 20 on the above grounds is really clutching at straws, and it does the author of that post no credit in the eyes of many who are looking at ways of ensuring that locomotives and rolling stock are suitable, appropriate and an asset to the SVR.

My earlier point, at the start of this thread, is still 'Do we have too many diesel locos for the services we need to cover'. It is not, 'Do we need diesels', as some seem to think. It's all about balance, and I wonder whether that balance is right, given the market that we are in. By that I mean the general tourist market; not the diesel enthusiast market, the public service market or even the steam enthusiast market.
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PGTips



Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleyman wrote:
Clearly there is little point in trying to answer PG Tips when he chooses to put his own sometimes rather extreme interpretation on the attempts of others to make reasoned points and infer unintended critisism of other parties in doing so.

It is a pity that this happens when a reasoned debate would otherwise be possible.

The concerns being expressed centre around the ability of the railway to meet the additional costs of these thunderbird diesels given that the need for them is occasional. The railway is not awash with surplus s.

Perhaps there has been a genuine management exercise, including analysis of risk to the public service on the number of occasions required, set against the real honest cost of thunderbird provision & comparison with the less than 100% ideal but safety net alternative of 08 use.

If this exercise has taken place and concluded that the costs are known, worthwhile and can be met then - fine.

If it has not then we should be rather worried for the future.

I find it striking that this new need does not seem to be prominent in the thoughts of other railways with not to dissimilar passenger figures to ours.


I don't consider my point of view as extreme, just reiterating what you've already published and i'm open to to a fair and equal debate about steam and diesel having equal but slightly different roles on the SVR. Those roles being chosen by the directorship we have voted into their positions and having a overall view of the railway that we don't always appreciate. If they decide to invest in a 3rd thunderbird then so be it, we should accept that decision. You are quite correct right about the costing exersise being carried out, if this isn't done we should be worried.
What i do find extreme is still your view that an 08 is a safety net, yet less then ideal, these are shunt engines and should be used as so!!!! Probably why the BDN 08 is in so poor condition. This view i take it is maintained by your anti diesel view, which you as long standing SVR volunteer should be happy to change.
This is not a new need to other railways, other railways are just less adverse to using diesel traction unlike certain sections of the SVR.
As for your concern's about the engineering and train crew issues from previous post perhaps you should stand up and be counted and take your concerns up with Mr. Price and Mr. Lane and improve the SVR as a whole steam and diesel, perhaps i'll see you at an MIC.
This will now be my last post on this subject as i'm quite happy for the SVR to run whatever steam and diesel traction, as i enjoy both, is good for the business that the directors decide, which you on the other hand are quite antiquated in yours anti diesel views.
PS Many years ago I was involved in a steam engine failure, before class 20's arrived, that required a steam engine to be 'gassed up' from barely warm to blowing off in 1 1/2 hours to forfill the requirements of the days service. The end.
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cherry_p



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 1875
Location: Solihull

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGTips wrote:
PS Many years ago I was involved in a steam engine failure, before class 20's arrived, that required a steam engine to be 'gassed up' from barely warm to blowing off in 1 1/2 hours to forfill the requirements of the days service.

I hope you're not suggesting that this was actually a good idea. The potential damage caused by 'gassing up' a steam loco can be considerable -- damage to stays and tubes. I recall in about 1976, 46443 was gassed up so quickly that it needed a retube!
As far as having 'Thunderbirds' at all, it's a matter of what you pay for what level of insurance. Fully comp is more than 'third party', [or taking the risk of not bothering at all] and while you may decide you are happy enough to pay 'fully comp', you still hope you'll never have to use it.
Over the Santa trains in December, a 20 was available at Arley throughout this period 'just in case'; thankfully it wasn't needed, but a steam loco failure at Arley without a standby is not a nice thought. It may never [or rarely] have happened in the past, but such insurance is worth having.
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MD655



Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil
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hearn_p



Joined: 15 Nov 2003
Posts: 5740
Location: North Somerset

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil


Welcome and all that MD655

Nice first post to get going...

Can we all not go off on another bout of public cat-fighting please?

Yours in peace

Patrick
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cherry_p



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 1875
Location: Solihull

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil

I definitely wish to protest at this sort of post. There are missing apostrophes !! We shouldn't allow such laxity in the forum. I trust you noticed, Brian ?? Shocked
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MD655



Joined: 27 Mar 2010
Posts: 74

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffer wrote:
hearn_p wrote:

Buffer wrote:
Assuming that 20177 is complete, how much would it cost to send it to a specialist company to have it overhauled to the same high standard as we get from Bridgnorth with a steam loco? There is no suggestion that the owners should do so but the question is asked out of interest to get comparative steam and diesel overhaul costs


I seem to remember that Western Courier's ten year overhaul cost around 100,000 and that 43106's cost around 400,000, but there will be big variations. The Western team was certainly volunteer lead with specialist work (e.g. transmission overhaul) outsourced but I can't comment on the amount of volunteer labour in each.

Many thanks for the information. It is suprising that a locomotive as complex as a Western can be overhauled for that sum even with a very substantial volunteer input.


The overhaul of 1062 did not include the bogies as these are in good condition anyway. So there was no cost there. Also, not only with our type of diesel, but also with many other types no doubt, their engines may still be in production in one form or another. Take the old Rolls Royce in-line 6 series diesel engine for example. Although developed in the mid 50's, the horizontal variant is still running around today under class 158's, 165's and 166's. So many of the parts, being electrical or mechanical can still be sourced off the shelf, thus keeping cost down as there is no need to produce special 'one off's'. It is also surprising how many people out in the wider world of business might say 'Oh I remember Westerns as a kid (steam had already gone), what can I do to help?' Although the Westerns might have been built in the BR Swindon and Crewe workshops, they only effectively built the body from scratch with engines, transmissions, pumps, driving controls etc being supplied by various private industries, some of which still exist today although some with a different name........Brush, electrical control gear. Voith, transmissions. Maybach Diesel Engines, now MTU. Where I imagine the majority of steam engines were entirely built by the railway workshops. All of which no longer exist.
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Jurasik



Joined: 08 Jul 2006
Posts: 151
Location: Wolverhampton

PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cherry_p wrote:
MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil

I definitely wish to protest at this sort of post. There are missing apostrophes !! We shouldn't allow such laxity in the forum. I trust you noticed, Brian ?? Shocked


Another punctuation comment to take this further off topic!
Come on people. It's getting all too much like a childrens playgorund in here!
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2732
Location: Glad to be no longer stuck on that linear parking lot known better as the M6

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cherry_p wrote:
MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil

I definitely wish to protest at this sort of post. There are missing apostrophes !! We shouldn't allow such laxity in the forum. I trust you noticed, Brian ?? Shocked
Sorry Pete; I think you've scored a bit of an own-goal there. So far as I can see, there's only one apostrophe missing; although there may be other omitted punctuation marks.

Does that qualify you for an "Un-Lynne Truss Award"? Rolling Eyes
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 829

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil


I guess the plan is the latest one from Blackadder & Baldrick then with plenty of tails no doubt........
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cherry_p



Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 1875
Location: Solihull

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
cherry_p wrote:
MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil

I definitely wish to protest at this sort of post. There are missing apostrophes !! We shouldn't allow such laxity in the forum. I trust you noticed, Brian ?? Shocked
Sorry Pete; I think you've scored a bit of an own-goal there. So far as I can see, there's only one apostrophe missing; although there may be other omitted punctuation marks.

Does that qualify you for an "Un-Lynne Truss Award"? Rolling Eyes

Brian .... missing apostrophes in Steams and Britains, which makes TWO !
It was intended as a slightly facetious reply to an equally facetious post, which I actually quite liked.
btw, re more diesels, we're now planning to put vac brakes on my Ruston, and run passenger trains with it [but it is April 1st...... ]
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PGTips



Joined: 18 Mar 2010
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

cherry_p wrote:
boldford wrote:
cherry_p wrote:
MD655 wrote:
Steams reign at the SVR is limited. The diesels are taking over. Our plan is almost complete. A few more diesels and a few more years and we will be there........The Severn Valley Railway, Britains Premier Diesel Railway. Hee hee..... Twisted Evil

I definitely wish to protest at this sort of post. There are missing apostrophes !! We shouldn't allow such laxity in the forum. I trust you noticed, Brian ?? Shocked
Sorry Pete; I think you've scored a bit of an own-goal there. So far as I can see, there's only one apostrophe missing; although there may be other omitted punctuation marks.

Does that qualify you for an "Un-Lynne Truss Award"? Rolling Eyes

Brian .... missing apostrophes in Steams and Britains, which makes TWO !
It was intended as a slightly facetious reply to an equally facetious post, which I actually quite liked.
btw, re more diesels, we're now planning to put vac brakes on my Ruston, and run passenger trains with it [but it is April 1st...... ]



And i bet your Ruston would still pull a crowd requiring mileage and traction behind it. Laughing
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mrmover



Joined: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 870
Location: Shropshire

PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PGTips wrote:

And i bet your Ruston would still pull a crowd requiring mileage and traction behind it. Laughing


But not many families on a day out or Shearings coaches with 40+ passengers.
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