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Why is SVR Limited now just for diners?
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sharpo



Joined: 19 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:09 am    Post subject: Why is SVR Limited now just for diners? Reply with quote

A simple question, but is there a good answer?

Maybe there isn't always a loco powerful enough for the 8 or 9 coaches it used to run with?

I seem to remember it running many times with plenty of "ordinary" passengers, as it was part of the normal timetable. Taking it out of the timetable reduces choice for would be passengers.
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hearn_p



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

More the other way so I've heard, with only 3 or so coaches for non-dining passengers it became very crowded on busy days

Taking it out of the public timetable doesn't reduce the number of trains for would be passengers because it's replaced by two trains - a diner and a passenger working. It does move the times around though.

Others that know more about it than me (i.e. almost anybody) can add more info about the practicalities and economics (and are doing so on another thread I see)

Patrick
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KJEvans



Joined: 08 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Why is SVR Limited now just for diners? Reply with quote

sharpo wrote:
A simple question, but is there a good answer?

Maybe there isn't always a loco powerful enough for the 8 or 9 coaches it used to run with?

I seem to remember it running many times with plenty of "ordinary" passengers, as it was part of the normal timetable. Taking it out of the timetable reduces choice for would be passengers.

Not sure of the official answer, but I think it's partly so it doesn't have to have a big(ish) sized loco and it also simplifies matters for the train crew. It also ties in with a change in set-up for checking tickets for the dinner.
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J-Green



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As Patrick says, the non-diner areas sometimes got very crowded on what was a limited accommodation set, so by not advertising it you reduce that issue. Of course, I don't think that you'd be turfed off a seat in the brake van carriage if you happened to sneak on...

It also means that the Diner runs as a short train, which makes a use for smaller engines like 4566 at the peak of the season when all the service trains are seven or eight and therefore out of their league.

Operationally, I believe it makes life easier for the diner staff. And I can imagine that without busy station stops it's easier to keep it to time (and your diner clientele are going to want to be on time!)

Whilst on another thread, I'm advocating it being added to the service train...ah, madness!
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xpc smooth



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nah, Jaimie, relax. As a veteran on 1940s weekend evening specials, I assure you; adding diners to a service train just makes it more fun, (albeit, this is the Venturer set).
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sharpo



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hearn_p wrote:
Taking it out of the public timetable doesn't reduce the number of trains for would be passengers because it's replaced by two trains - a diner and a passenger working. It does move the times around though.
Patrick

Just looking at a 2011 Timetable B for a Sunday, 7 trains, 1 of which is the Limited. I haven't a 2012 timetable to hand at the moment.

The Timetable B for this year on a Sunday just shows 6 trains, so I don't see how that fits in with your comment above? There were 7 trains for "ordinary" passengers to travel on then, but now only 6.
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KJEvans



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sharpo wrote:
hearn_p wrote:
Taking it out of the public timetable doesn't reduce the number of trains for would be passengers because it's replaced by two trains - a diner and a passenger working. It does move the times around though.
Patrick

Just looking at a 2011 Timetable B for a Sunday, 7 trains, 1 of which is the Limited. I haven't a 2012 timetable to hand at the moment.

The Timetable B for this year on a Sunday just shows 6 trains, so I don't see how that fits in with your comment above? There were 7 trains for "ordinary" passengers to travel on then, but now only 6.

Maybe Patrick was thinking more for the A timetable arrangement than the B and C.
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Danny252



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does the diner carry no seating for the general public at all, or is it just unadvertised? The notes on it are R,U - "Conveys restaurant cars ... Limited accommodation for non-dining passengers" and "Unadvertised public passenger service".
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threelinkdave



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The diner has run as S(5) since the start of the new season so only the 30 seats in the brake are available for non diners. For those of you who dont have access to the WTT the Limited is a fast service and does not stop at wayside stations. The down diner stops at Bewdley for pathing, crosses the up, and then runs non stop to Bridgnorth. On the up there is a pathing stop at Hampton Loade stops to set down at Highley, so diners can look round the Engine House if they desire, then runs fast to Kidderminster. Having worked the first two I can confirm that the planned non stop running is achievable.
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walton_cw



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the GW diner as a service train is that there have not been enough seats available for the numbers of non dining passengers travelling or boarding at intermediates. Also the non dining coaches are compartment stock so all available seats do not get used, as passengers do not like sharing a compartment. Additionally there is no accomodation for wheelchair based passengers
As the guard on 3 of the Sunday's last November working the diner diagram, each occasion gave passenger problems in relation to expectation - Overcrowding, pre-booked parties not wanting compartments, wheelchairs and bicycles with nowhere to put them and expectations of a buffet being on the train when there isn't one in the formation.
The final one was a TTI being told that we had ruined a groups birthday outing because the facilities promised when the booking was made were not included in the formation - they had been promised an open and there wasn't one, they had been promised a buffet and there wasn't one. Organisationally we consistently failed week after week last November.

This year running as a dedicated train with restricted stops means that we can improve the "Limited" dining experience as there is now only one sitting and as dining is prebooked anyway there is no need to feature it in the timetable. The return journey stopping at Highley allows any dining passengers to get off for the Engine House.
With this being a 5 coach train it will be run into platform 2 at Bridgnorth which also assists in making it "invisible" but the platform indicator will describe it as a private charter. Any-one who really does want to catch it still can do - on the understanding that it only stops at Highley and Kidderminster.
It also facilitates the use of the smaller engines and for saloon charters to be attached to it.

On the A service additional passenger capacity is now being provided by use of the DMU to enhance the service.

Hope that the above information explains the background thinking.
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sharpo



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading the previous post, which mentions "there have not been enough seats available for the numbers of non dining passengers travelling or boarding at intermediates", the question has to be asked - what do those passengers now do?

With the B Timetable now only showing 6 trains instead of 7, will the other trains have to have more coaches added to carry more passengers, or will they now suffer overcrowding?

Looking at the C Timetable, now 8 instead of 9 trains, allowing for the time when the Limited runs, there will be a gap of 90 minutes between trains, so the train before it & the one after could be very busy - more problems with overcrowding on what are likely to be busy days?

Time will tell if it was the right decision.
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bradleyman



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

walton_cw wrote:
The problem with the GW diner as a service train is that there have not been enough seats available for the numbers of non dining passengers travelling or boarding at intermediates. Also the non dining coaches are compartment stock so all available seats do not get used, as passengers do not like sharing a compartment. Additionally there is no accomodation for wheelchair based passengers
As the guard on 3 of the Sunday's last November working the diner diagram, each occasion gave passenger problems in relation to expectation - Overcrowding, pre-booked parties not wanting compartments, wheelchairs and bicycles with nowhere to put them and expectations of a buffet being on the train when there isn't one in the formation.
The final one was a TTI being told that we had ruined a groups birthday outing because the facilities promised when the booking was made were not included in the formation - they had been promised an open and there wasn't one, they had been promised a buffet and there wasn't one. Organisationally we consistently failed week after week last November.

This year running as a dedicated train with restricted stops means that we can improve the "Limited" dining experience as there is now only one sitting and as dining is prebooked anyway there is no need to feature it in the timetable. The return journey stopping at Highley allows any dining passengers to get off for the Engine House.
With this being a 5 coach train it will be run into platform 2 at Bridgnorth which also assists in making it "invisible" but the platform indicator will describe it as a private charter. Any-one who really does want to catch it still can do - on the understanding that it only stops at Highley and Kidderminster.
It also facilitates the use of the smaller engines and for saloon charters to be attached to it.

On the A service additional passenger capacity is now being provided by use of the DMU to enhance the service.

Hope that the above information explains the background thinking.


This sounds like decision making based on contorted thinking worthy of the worst of the BR era!

Firstly overcrowding - how does removal of a train from the timetable address the issue of overcrowding when clearly there is a demand for non dining travel at that time?

Secondly expectation management - in several instances you quote situations where passengers had booked facilities which were never intended to be available. As we are paying staff to take such bookings it seems very basic that they should at least be sufficiently knowledgable & competent to advise on facilities & only take bookings accordingly. In what other ways are they giving out misinformation to potential passengers?

Thirdly accurate visibility of the real timetable - how many potential passengers are less inclined to visit when the service appears more basic than it really is? - one of the USPs of the railway is its intensity of operation when compared with the alternatives.

No wonder there is disquiet over some decisions being made currently.
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walton_cw



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bradleyman wrote
Quote:
Firstly overcrowding - how does removal of a train from the timetable address the issue of overcrowding when clearly there is a demand for non dining travel at that time?



Last year it was a substitution issue, this year it is an extra for diners only instead of diners and all stations passengers - where it didn't work for all the reasons identified.

Quote:
Secondly expectation management - in several instances you quote situations where passengers had booked facilities which were never intended to be available. As we are paying staff to take such bookings it seems very basic that they should at least be sufficiently knowledgable & competent to advise on facilities & only take bookings accordingly. In what other ways are they giving out misinformation to potential passengers?

Yes I quite agree and it happens.

Quote:
Thirdly accurate visibility of the real timetable - how many potential passengers are less inclined to visit when the service appears more basic than it really is? - one of the USPs of the railway is its intensity of operation when compared with the alternatives


Service is increased by DMU as I indicated. Anyone booked on the diner knows their departure time before they arrive. [url][/url]
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sharpo



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

walton_cw wrote:

Service is increased by DMU as I indicated.

That does not apply with Timetable B & C when there is 1 train less, as I indicated in my post.
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hearn_p



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PostPosted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sharpo

Are we comparing like for like? AIUI the public timetable on the website does not show the dining trains, so timetable B shows 6 trains but on Sundays 7 run

Or am I more than usually confused?

Patrick
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