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Improving the restoration rate of non passenger stock
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hunter_i



Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:19 am    Post subject: Improving the restoration rate of non passenger stock Reply with quote

This post follows from a discussion in the general forum on creating a new SVR Wiki site. The new SVR Wiki site is now in operation and looks great, especially the rolling stock page with vehicle descriptions and links to what appear to be very recent photographs.

Looking at these has prompted some personal thoughts on the future recording and management of the restoration of non passenger rolling stock.

Although goods vehicles are a minority interest they were the reason the railways were created, and the lifeblood of the economy for over one hundred years. There were over one million goods vehicles on Britain’s railways so the handful of survivors surely deserve some consideration.

The following suggestions are of course made without any knowledge of the nature of agreements with the existing vehicle owners or any existing management plan. Just ramblings by a long term but sadly remote member, and I apologise if restoration strategies are already in place.

The first step in fleet management is recording what is on hand. On the question of a new stock book I suggest we should have both Wiki and hard copy. The Wiki rolling stock page is a convenient central repository and can (hopefully) be readily updated by local observers. This seems to be the logically way to go, rather than rely on ad hoc forum postings or outdated official SVR sources.

However a printed stock book is still a good idea, not just for the quality of the photographs but also as a permanent snapshot in time of the state of the fleet.

Recording Restoration Status

While the format of the Wiki stock register is an excellent start, it could be further enhanced by additions to the stock condition column.

The notations already in use include ‘restored’ and ‘operational’. However the latter term may be ambiguous, since judging by the photos most of the service stock in particular looks cosmetically quite unrestored, so ‘operational’ is no guarantee of condition.

The national goods wagon database has multiple measures for internal, external and chassis condition but to make life simple, possibly a more basic set of restoration categories would be sufficient for the SVR database. Maybe the wagon restorers have some thoughts (or records?) on grading vehicle condition and potential restoration effort.

As a general suggestion the classifications on condition could include – restored, superficial restoration required (i.e. basically just a repaint), detailed restoration required (as in significant body repairs), or derelict.

Regarding Restoration Strategies for Non Passenger Stock

With only a handful of volunteer wagon restorers the current backlog of restorations seems unmanageable. While it is hard to tell from the photos on the wiki stock list, of some 130 or so items, their condition would seem to break down approximately to – restored 45, needing cosmetic restoration 54, needing deeper restoration 25 and derelict 6. This excessive backlog raises important issues for consideration by the Railway.

Reducing the workload on the current restorers would seem a logical initial step by focusing their efforts on the most historic stock. Possibly there may be some genuinely surplus items or those with no SVR links which could be found a good home.

To further reduce workloads a category for separate management would be the nine tool vans, plus those other vehicles currently used for ongoing storage/accommodation etc. Could some equitable but formalised arrangement be made for the occupiers to maintain them in a presentable condition?

The service stock, particularly the ballast wagons, are never going to look pristine, but ongoing maintenance is still required to avoid expensive rebuilds. Should the cost of such essential plant maintenance be paid from the PW budget as a necessary ongoing expense, even to the extent of using outside contractors?

Obtaining funding for additional restoration resources could be trialled using such strategies as targeted mini funding appeals or even cloud funding.

Targeted appeals could include say the 15 or so wagons/vans now over one hundred years old, some of which only require superficial restoration.

Or it may be more practical to focus on the handful of unique items which have some specific public appeal. A particular example would be the grounded Horse Box at Highley, which was built in 1888 and according to the stock register is the oldest rolling stock item on the railway. Also such items as the fruit vans and tank wagons may have attractive paint scheme options.

If there are a number of vehicles that only require repainting, perhaps there may be sponsorship opportunities with say a national paint manufacturer – I can think of no better example for advertising paint durability than on goods wagons which are not only exposed to all weathers, but also repeatedly moved about and generally knocked around over many decades. Or possibly apprentice training opportunities, or adopt/sponsor a wagon, or help Thomas fix the troublesome trucks. Just thinking outside the box. Dare I even suggest selling period style advertising on appropriate vehicles.

This leads me finally to the derelict stock. The chassis only items including BR Brake 955243, SR Bogie Brake 56291 and LNER wagon 225641 (is there some mysterious destructive force in the Bermuda - sorry Stourport triangle, considering those vehicles once had bodies before they ended up there?). The Iron Mink body 57976 also looks too far gone. They should all be struck off the wagon register, as should the disintegrated wagons at the Kidderminster Museum.

However the remaining vehicles at the Kidderminster Museum would seem still restorable for the present. But in their current location not only do they present a significant eyesore to most visitors to the railway, they appear to serve no purpose at the museum which is focused on signalling, and should be removed.

If the museum wants a couple of vans as examples to park by their loading platforms, perhaps they should be given the two metal BR goods vans 200176 and 201056 which, if they are not now required in the diesel sidings, would be more durable. They are also historic relics in that they represent the last gasp of the fixed wheel base goods wagon, and have a provenance dating back to the wagon ways of 2000 years ago.

Sorry for the lengthy post/sermon.
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Graham



Joined: 21 May 2011
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Location: The banks of the River Severn as it meanders through the sun dappled leafy glades of Worcestershire

PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As someone involved in both the wiki and wagon restoration, I'll try to answer some of the points raised.

I like the idea of a more detailed report on the condition of every wagon.
I live locally and can gain a certain amount of inside information, so I could start taking detail photos and notes and pad out the wagon pages with a bit more information.

Yes, the current backlog of restorations is unmanageable.
The two wagons currently in the goods shed, the plywood van and the improvised gunpowder van, have both been restored before, many years ago, and have deteriorated to the state where they need restoring again.
While they are on their second turn, others have missed out completely.
As always, it's a shortage of manpower and money.

It's not just the tool vans, most of the covered wagons and some of the open wagons have got stuff stored in them.
I believe there are unofficial agreements with some groups to maintain "their" wagon themselves.
Perhaps a more formal arrangement of hiring them out as lock ups would at least create a regular income for the wagon department.

When it comes to sponsorship, I believe paint and timber are our biggest expenses. I don't know how to convince any paint or timber supplier that we could give them value for money.

I think we're at the stage where the wagons are ignored because all they do is sit there, and all they do is sit there because everyone ignores them.
As I've mentioned before, a Goods Train Footplate Experience and a Goods Guard Weekend, similar to the Signalling Weekend, could raise interest and money.

My own personal wish list would be a Permanent Way train made up of GWR ballast wagons, the chaired sleeper wagon, the Macaw and Shark and seeing some of the pre-grouping wagons back in use.
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Stato



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 6:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

its a pity the wagons haven't got a shed to store them in just like the coaches.
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fathers_p



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PostPosted: Mon Jun 15, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Wagon Collection Reply with quote

The idea of a wagon shed has been explored. This article explains where the project floundered.

SVR WAGON SHED PROJECT

By Paul Fathers

The winter 2013 edition of the SVR News included a letter from Michael Denholm in which he highlighted the importance of the goods wagon collection based at the SVR and asking whether covered accommodation could be provided to protect the vehicles. The collection is impressive comprising over 100 wagons representing the major pre-nationalisation companies and British Railways. Over half the collection is Great Western with the oldest dating back to 1890. As Mr Denholm points out, the collection is deteriorating, through exposure to the weather and vandalism, despite the best efforts of Steve Peplow and his wagon department colleagues. In 2008 Steve wrote a discussion paper on the future of the wagon collection which formed the basis of a project proposal for a 50 wagon storage shed. The Carriage Shed and Engine House have proven the effectiveness of covered accommodation in protecting the carriage and locomotive collection by reducing the rate of deterioration of our historic vehicle collection. The site selected for the facility was just beyond the permanent way storage area at Bewdley, in the cutting of the disused Stourport line. The proposal was approved by the board and a small team began work on a Heritage Lottery Fund (HLF) application. An article appeared in the summer 2010 edition of the SVR News giving details of the application. The HLF were receptive to the proposal, possibly because the SVR had completed a number of successful lottery funded projects. However, by the time the application was submitted the emphasis of the HLF had become focused upon ‘education and participation.’ This meant our proposal (for an inaccessible shed with wagons hidden from view) did not match the HLF criteria. The application was therefore amended to include the restoration of the historic Bewdley Goods Shed (a rare example of a complete Victorian goods shed) and the surrounding area, to provide visitors with information on the importance and development of rail freight and the unique wagon collection. The front office of the Goods Shed would be restored to Edwardian condition, accessible for viewing whilst providing the wagon department with a records office. The inner office would provide displays, exhibits and videos explaining the transport of goods by rail. The northern half of the goods shed, which includes the internal crane, would be restored for viewing whilst the wagon department would continue using the shed and the extension at the southern end as their workshop. Additional exhibits would be provided around the shed by reinstating the cattle pens and weighbridge, with GW horse drawn drays and road motor vehicles on display. The other element of the proposal was to use the wagon collection on a regular timetabled goods train and to include demonstrations of loose shunting, loading and unloading, as well as photo charters. The company was asked to participate in developing the educational theme but unfortunately did not have the resources to help with the project. The revisions drawn up by the team were submitted for consideration by the HLF. Unfortunately the application was turned down by the regional HLF committee on the following grounds; “The Committee recognised the importance of the need to help preserve the collection of railway wagons and the pressing need to offer protection for more vulnerable rolling stock. They were however concerned that the learning and participation outcomes that were to be offered as part of the project were not as equally scoped and as a consequence did not feel that there was a suitable balance within the project to address our published criteria.” After their decision I met with Rex Carson, the HLF casework manager, and was impressed by the level of consideration the assessment team had given to the proposal. He clearly felt the application had merit and did not rule out a future application, but emphasised the importance of developing the educational aspect of the proposal. I would like to thank those who helped with the project; John Austin (artist), Rex Carson (HLF), Keith Chandler (Clist & Chandler), Phil Cheesewright, Rick Eborall (Railway Photography), Paddy Goss, Andrew Harding, Andrew Horner (ADH Ltd), Clive Morris (Transport Trust), Steve Peplow, Phil Sowden, Jonathan Symonds (David Symonds Associates), Nick Ralls, Simon Walker (Walker Cotter Partnership) and Roger Wilkins (Wilkins Chartered Surveyors). As with the previous applications, these individuals and companies gave willingly of their time and effort at no cost to the SVR. Those who have worked on lottery applications will appreciate what a long, time consuming, frustrating and often thankless task it is, requiring tenacity verging upon obsession. This was the third I had worked on for the SVR and compared to the first two projects, it was not expensive (although it’s not cheap either). The grant application was for £590,000. The project remains valid although SVR applications to the lottery are now centralised through the company rather than through voluntary effort. I have written to Hugh McQuade (chairman of the SVR Trust) in the hope that at some time in the future the Trust may be able to sponsor a revised application. The draft details of the project are complete, including plans with estimated costs and the planning authority is aware of the proposal.
A wagon shed would protect the collection for years to come and give Steve and his team a much better chance of preserving the collection by rotating the more vulnerable vehicles between display and storage. It would also enable pre-formed goods trains of up to 50 vehicles to be operated. Now that would be a sight! Steve and I would be very pleased to talk with anyone who would like to help revise the project, or indeed help to pay for it!
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the posts gentlemen. Paul you tenacity is amazing and Graham having to redo vehicles must be terribly demoralising.

Just a few more ideas from the arm chair.

If the Heritage Lottery Fund is looking for more ‘education and participation’ for a successful funding application, perhaps a total goods train experience is an idea worth considering.
The experience would involve running a steam hauled goods train over all or part of the line with a group of paying passengers comprising schools, tourists etc riding in multiple guards vans.

It would be marketed as – Back to the 1930’s How We Lived Then.

The experience would start with an introductory film show – hopefully in the training centre proposed for the Bridgnorth station redevelopment.

The first film feature would be one of the vintage B&W films produced by the railway companies on the importance of rail freight. The second would be specially made on the SVR (still in vintage B&W and featuring various volunteers – maybe a budding film producer would provide their services free for the exposure).

The SVR film would involve various scenarios for dramatic effect, all revolving around the delivery of various goods. The participants would then experience these scenarios as they travelled down the line in real time, stopping at the various locations. These experiences could involve just watching reenactors, assisting or having starring roles.

The sub plots could involve for example –

The urgent transporting of perishable items – think Thomas and the Flying Kipper using the fish van, or the refrigeration and fruit vans.

The risk of transporting dangerous goods as per the gunpowder van (don’t panic Mr Jones)

The delivery of essential household items such as coal and milk. Maybe with a sick baby storyline!

A farmer’s young daughter waiting for her horse to arrive.

A family moving house and worried about damage or lose of all their furniture.

A manufacturer desperate for an urgent replacement machine part, with potential loss of an important order and financial ruin/mass unemployment.

Many scenarios can be imagined, hopefully utilising the many different types of goods vehicle on the railway. Behind every delivery there is a story, we just need to highlight the dramatic possibilities.

The role of the goods train in any of the delivery scenarios could educate on -

The paperwork involved in ordering a rail delivery. This would raise issues of customer service (contrasting then and now), how the railways priced their delivery services (accounting overheads and why the railways become uncompetitive) and their common carrier obligations (contract law).

The paperwork required by the railway to pick up the goods, organise the appropriate type and number of wagons at the right location, arrange a timetable path for the train, and arrange for a locomotive and crew, are all examples of the enormous number of tasks required by a large organisation over great distances, in the era before computers and mobile phones. Such complex organisation challenges are still relevant today particularly for multinationals.

The labour intensive nature of railway operations. The number of people that were required for even obscure jobs, from the waker up of the crew to the wheel tapper and the axle greaser. Consider how the modern economy can replace all these jobs.

The physical effort in loading and unloading goods with little mechanical assistance. Contrast changes with medical treatment, health and safety legislation and pension support.

Were the railways efficient in the past in providing an efficient delivery service. How long did customers have to wait for their goods? What is the best niche for railway freight in the modern economy?

The locations for the various delivery scenarios to be enacted would basically be at selected stations along the line. It would seem logical to start at Bridgnorth, probably using the furthest road into the shed, which has a flat surface next to the back driveway. Using a vintage vehicle the delivery items could be loaded at that point. If the Locomotive department objected to a temporary occupation, they could be reminded it was originally the goods yard.

As the train proceeded down the line it could progress in scenario from the needs of country people (i.e. Arley), the coal industry (Highley), to the town (Bewdley – where the crane could be used to unload some heavy item of say machinery) and finally a significant manufacturing centre (Kidderminster with its two large goods sheds).

Because of a lack of goods facilities at Kidderminster, perhaps the participants could leave the train at Bewdley and travel by vintage bus to maybe the Kidderminster carpet manufacturer (if they still exist), for an inspection and talk on why they no longer use rail transport.

The experience could then conclude with a visit to the Kidderminster Railway Museum. Possibly a van the participants helped load at Kidderminster could be waiting in the headshunt for them to unload. Letting them leave with a memento such as a sample from the load or a photograph might be a nice final touch.

Having written this outline, it sounds overly complicated and expensive, but it is not much different to the special events now common on heritage railways, and would only require a few volunteers and activities to be effective. Maybe it could be trialled as an expanded goods guard weekend using just a narrator to provide some context.

Watching someone loading or unloading is normally a complete non event, but if there is an emotion element i.e. this is what your grandparents would have done, or you are engaged intellectually - this is how and why our economy has changed, then a total experience package could become very popular. The hands on aspect could also be a unique feature, with schools competing to load or unload the fastest and learning cooperation and teamwork.

Two quick final points. With reference to the Lottery Fund’s concern about a hidden away storage shed, the existing head shunt at Highley already seems to be quite long. So just wondering is there sufficient land to start even a small storage shed somewhere thereabouts? It could even just be a roof to start with. While it is more economical to aim for one large shed, maybe we need to start small.

On the funding question, the SVR members and shareholders have dug deep over the years to fund the essential elements of a heritage steam railway. Consequently the boiler shop was funded to keep the engines running, a carriage shed because they wanted to continue to ride in appropriate vintage carriages, and restoration of the original stations because they did not want to use a modern monstrosity, as witnessed by the negative response to the original Bridgnorth redevelopment proposals.

A funding appeal to shareholders would therefore be on the basis of maintaining the environment of the SVR as it used to be. If the goods yards and wagons are not considered relevant to that environment, then presumably they would be content to have the land sold for holiday flats. It also makes economic sense to paint the number of vehicles which are rapidly deteriorating into the too far gone category. Perhaps something emotional like – “They have survived for over one hundred years, is this their last winter?”.

There are also other railway enthusiasts who would be disposed to contribute to preserving one of the largest vehicle collections in the country.

To conclude it is worth noting that management are reported to be continuing to explore funding options for the Bridgnorth redevelopment. Might they be aware of funding sources too small for that major project, but able to provide seed funding for a modest wagon shed?

Sorry for another excessively long post.
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Robin



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hunter_i wrote:
<snip>Consequently the boiler shop was funded to keep the engines running...</snip>

At the time it was funded because an injunction was taken out to stop the SVR riveting boilers in the open air and upsetting the neighbours! That said, it has been a very useful asset.
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Peter Share



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:15 pm    Post subject: Boiler Shop Reply with quote

Just to add a note to Robin's comment.

A friend of mine built those houses at the back of Bridgnorth station.
His comment on reading about the injunction was "The railway was there before I built those houses, how can they complain?

Peter
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Graham



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like your vision Hunter-I, although I think it would be far too labour intensive for anything other than a special Goods Weekend.
From what I've seen at other museums, Education & Participation means having small, non delicate, non harmful, non valuable items that children can pick up and handle, not allowing them to load heavy boxes on to moving vehicles with a crane.
Realistically, I think the nearest you could get to this would be some sort of "get the wagons in the right order" touch screen train shunting simulation.
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify, heavy was the wrong word to use in my previous host. Children and indeed any participants would only handle dummy lightweight items. A simulation illustrating heavy manual labour, if used, would only be intended to create an impression, and could be just a verbal example.

While any demonstration in the goods shed should involve trying to crank the (cranky) crane, it would be more generally about the daily complexity of loading and unloading bulky items. For example explaining the detailed instructions the railway companies issued for tying down various loads.

My idea in essence is simply a brake van ride, with a series of individual personal stories told along the way, emphasising why each recipient is waiting for their particular deliveries, and placing these individual transactions in a broader social, historical and economic context.

An additional element would be practical demonstrations to reinforce those explanations by actually unloading the particular (imitation) goods, and all this could all be done with two or three volunteers going along with the train and portraying the various recipients.

If it could be managed properly, the final element would be some level of personal participation to reinforce the hands on learning concept. These should be fun activities, especially for younger participants.
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Buffer



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If any of these ideas were to be put into effect, the major input would have to come from people who are not already heavily involved in wagon restoration.
There is an excellent film 'Fully Fitted Freight', produced by British Transport Films in the 1950s that links the general public directly to the running of a through Bristol to Leeds express freight. The story is a simple one; a lady in Scotland needs a pair of fleece-lined boots from Moreland of Glastonbury, a Yorkshire farmer a tractor tyre from Avon of Melksham and I believe we see chocolates from Fry's loaded, something that would definitely appeal to most of us. The film, and many others, is available on DVD and providing copies are available for public showing, why not see if there is any interest in pursuing the matter by showing it from time to time in The Engine House? Should there be sufficient interest, it could be linked to an actual pick-up goods train calling at Highley during a gala, or other special event, dropping off wagons that arrived at Worcester as part of a long-distance freight like the one in the film. We thus have a plausible and educational story that gives the running of the pick-up goods real meaning.
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Stato



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PostPosted: Tue Jun 16, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Talking of the Engine House I remember the fly shunting demo at Highley on gala days many moons ago. Can this be brought back?
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hunter_i



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The film idea sounds great. The audience could be asked to register their interest in a real life brake van ride.

Actual evidence of educational activities would be highly desirable for a renewed Lottery application.
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David McFall



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 17, 2015 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One option to seeking out help is sponsorship . Did or has Cadburys. Been approach ? They may like to keep their wagon smart and included in trains etc . I'm not sure how many wagons we have that could carry company names.
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Buffer



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David McFall wrote:
One option to seeking out help is sponsorship . Did or has Cadburys. Been approach ? They may like to keep their wagon smart and included in trains etc . I'm not sure how many wagons we have that could carry company names.


First Great Western is to change its name to Great Western Railway in September. Perhaps the company would sponsor the restoration of a few wagons bearing the GW label.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Graham"]I think we're at the stage where the wagons are ignored because all they do is sit there, and all they do is sit there because everyone ignores them.
As I've mentioned before, a Goods Train Footplate Experience and a Goods Guard Weekend, similar to the Signalling Weekend, could raise interest and money.

I notice the Railway has an increasing number of special event days clearly organised in a highly professional manner.

Some of them such as the 'Steam & Whistle Activity Club' operate using the scheduled service with admission to special attractions at particular stations. Perhaps the Railway could provide some advice on running a goods weekend.

As a basic model there could be displays and maybe guided tours/talks at the Kidderminster goods sheds/museum and the Engine House. Combined perhaps with some displays of freight handling at Bewdley and livestock loading at Highley. The Activity Club would probably have ideas on how to entertain children - games like pass the parcel perhaps?
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