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GWR 2-8-0 2857
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got it in one Brian.
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not-commissioned!



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Location: Porto Alegre Brazil

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its great to see 2857 coming back together. its my understanding that it will be ready when its ready.

A shame to see the old footplate crew bashing going on again. Work and family comes first until retirement hits im afraid!
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Footplate crew bashing? - not really - it really is time to get real on this one.

If somebody can find the time to become qualified and do turns as footplate crew they have proved that they have at least some spare time to spend on the railway.

What then entitles them to spend ALL this time on the footplate??

A more balanced approach is urgently required.
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xpc smooth



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 323
Location: in front of a computer...obviously

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleyman wrote:
Footplate crew bashing? - not really - it really is time to get real on this one.

If somebody can find the time to become qualified and do turns as footplate crew they have proved that they have at least some spare time to spend on the railway.

What then entitles them to spend ALL this time on the footplate??

A more balanced approach is urgently required.


I think, as Olly5764 pointed out, the 2857 group have some qualified engineers and not everyone who is on the footplate can do that sort of stuff. I have done no work at all on loco restoration during my 39 years on the Railway, but I have shovelled a lot of ballast and other, less attractive substances, during that time. I have also lifted a lot of "evvy fings."

In a volunteer organisation, people drift towards what suits them; that's the name of the game. I agree, however, that people who just come down to drive or fire, need to be re-directed a bit. It used to be a rule that footplate staff had to do 12 turns a year, doing something other than footplate work to stay current. That always seemed fair to me.
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
Posts: 827

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 12 turns (other than footplate work) per year to remain on the roster was a good system which some other railways still operate - if the 100 approx current locomen just did this 1200 man days of work would result if properly organised - broadly equivalent to employing 5 further full time staff!

Not everybody needs to have engineering qualifications and already honed skills. It is quite possible with suitable supervision and instruction to pass on particular and useful skills which greatly help share some of the load.

This is what the 2857 lads have particularly demonstrated to great effect.

The work can actually be fun and give a sense of achievement.

Obviously work in other departments is useful but the plain fact is that currently there just arn't enough volunteers usefully spending their time on loco overhaul/maintenance work and the balance needs to change.
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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
Posts: 2729
Location: Glad to be no longer stuck on that linear parking lot known better as the M6

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 2857 guys are now very competent yet when they started the boiler overhaul most knew little. They have honed their skills by making the effort under the supervision of a skilled boiler-smith.
Similar offers of guidance have been made on the mechanical side. Few loco-men have shown any interest. In too many people's eyes there is far less glamour to be had operating a machine tool or working at a bench than posing on the footplate.
To a degree I will accept input into other areas does mitigate; however it is generally recognised that the finest way for a loco-man to obtain an intimate knowledge of his charge is to take it apart and fix it when it goes wrong.
If a person can find the spare time to do a footplate turn then I'm sure time can be found to repair some of the wear and tear they've inflicted.
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madderlake



Joined: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 266
Location: Bridgnorth

PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2010 11:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
Considering how few qualified footplate crew members continue to actually work on the locos to assist the paid staff is it any surprise how protracted some of these restorations can be?


I thought that, in theory, it is the the other way round: that the paid staff are supposed to be there to help the volunteers with their engines.
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not-commissioned!



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 201
Location: Porto Alegre Brazil

PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

boldford wrote:
The 2857 guys are now very competent yet when they started the boiler overhaul most knew little. They have honed their skills by making the effort under the supervision of a skilled boiler-smith.
Similar offers of guidance have been made on the mechanical side. Few loco-men have shown any interest. In too many people's eyes there is far less glamour to be had operating a machine tool or working at a bench than posing on the footplate.
To a degree I will accept input into other areas does mitigate; however it is generally recognised that the finest way for a loco-man to obtain an intimate knowledge of his charge is to take it apart and fix it when it goes wrong.
If a person can find the spare time to do a footplate turn then I'm sure time can be found to repair some of the wear and tear they've inflicted.


So we agree with john that pway work is an acceptable job for footplate crews as it helps to repair some of the wear and tear we inflict! Also although i agree that it is good to have a intimate knowledge of the construction of the locomotive it doesn't always mean that that person understands how those pieces of ironmongry makes it go forwards or backwards. I know, i've seen it in aviation often enough.

Also i believe that input into other areas FULLY mitigates not working in the shed because alot of the 1200 man days previously stated that would be gained in the shed would be lost to other causes.

It is only right and proper that encouragement should be given to people to come and help out in the shed but the "plain fact" is that most of us footplate crews do have other jobs on the railway. You must be fully aware of the names of the people who you believe do not carry their weight on the railway, why dont you let the CTI know and action can be taken.

personnally speaking it would be a joy to come and halp out as having done manual labour all my working life im aware of the "fun and sense of achievement" it can give, but work and family comitments prevent any more at this time. Bring on retirement!

Look forward to seeing you both on my next turn Wink







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boldford



Joined: 11 Aug 2005
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I used the term "mitigate" not "compensate"!
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bradleyman



Joined: 23 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Plenty of justification here re non MPD input into the wider SVR volunteer need & of course this is valuable but it is not a complete answer.

What it very neatly overlooks is the inescapable truth that enginemen who also participate in rebuilds & repairs will, over time, develop a far better understanding of the locos in their charge.

This leads to:
1. Greater respect & better treatment of motive power possibly leading to fuel economy
2. Far better ability to diagnose faults
3. Some ability to fix routine faults

All the above save the railway s, and contribute to a more reliable train service with possible spin offs in increased safety.

It is no coincidence that one of the most efficient train services in the world (Swiss Railways) is manned by Drivers who are REQUIRED to have served their time in a railway engineering context.

If everybody works elsewhere on the railway & then joins the MPD just to do footplate turns we are no further forward!!! (ignoring the even greater issue that some still appear to do ONLY footplate work).
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hassell_a



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1431
Location: Shropshire

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleyman wrote:
Plenty of justification here re non MPD input into the wider SVR volunteer need & of course this is valuable but it is not a complete answer.

What it very neatly overlooks is the inescapable truth that enginemen who also participate in rebuilds & repairs will, over time, develop a far better understanding of the locos in their charge.

This leads to:
1. Greater respect & better treatment of motive power possibly leading to fuel economy
2. Far better ability to diagnose faults
3. Some ability to fix routine faults

All the above save the railway s, and contribute to a more reliable train service with possible spin offs in increased safety.

It is no coincidence that one of the most efficient train services in the world (Swiss Railways) is manned by Drivers who are REQUIRED to have served their time in a railway engineering context.

If everybody works elsewhere on the railway & then joins the MPD just to do footplate turns we are no further forward!!! (ignoring the even greater issue that some still appear to do ONLY footplate work).


While I generally agree with most of your comments here, I don't think that raiding other SVR depts (especially infrastructure ones) for volunteer staff time is the answer - that is merely relocating the problem from the MPD to the P.Way, etc. where just like on the loco side, the fabric of the railway is requiring more and more work to keep up to a good standard.

What is needed is more volunteer staff hours added to the current amount at the railway's disposal, so surely a better soution would be not to 'ignore the even greater issue' and get those who current ONLY do footplate work to contribute (and I think that those of us who have posted on here in the past few days all know who we are talking about). This would increase of overall amount of work put back into the railway.

Obviously, the recent initiatives that have been organised at Bridgnorth to organise jobs that volunteers can tackle at weekends are helping to fix the links between volunteer and paid staff labour at Bridgnorth, but we all know that that probably wouldn't be enough. So I do think that a return to a system of requiring a minimum number of non footplate turns per year (maybe 5?) to stay on the roster would be neccessary.

More emphasis could be placed on the fact that much non footplate work is very rewarding and good fun. I think sometimes that some of the requests for help almost make these things sound like a chore - which they are not.

Finally, as for me, in 2009 I spent about 60 days on the railway consisting of:

Around 20 footplate turns, 10 signal boxes turns (mostly antisocial, late evening turns to allow very lucrative dining trians to run) and 30 days S&T.

While I didn't do much work on locos (other than the standard sort of repairs that any driver should be capable of), I feel that I put back in as much as I take out of the SVR, and have 'earned' my entitlement to carry out footplate turns. In my non loco capacity, I'll be at Hampton Loade on Sunday helping to reinstate the railway so that we can actually have a gala in just over 2 weeks time (where I may even get a footplate turn....).
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All Comments and Opinions are my own and do not reflect those of SVR (Holdings) PLC, SVR Company Limited, or SVR Charitable Trust.
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Buffer



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
Posts: 682
Location: Leamington Spa

PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hassell_a wrote:
While I didn't do much work on locos (other than the standard sort of repairs that any driver should be capable of), I feel that I put back in as much as I take out of the SVR, and have 'earned' my entitlement to carry out footplate turns. In my non loco capacity, I'll be at Hampton Loade on Sunday helping to reinstate the railway so that we can actually have a gala in just over 2 weeks time (where I may even get a footplate turn....).


I don't want to get involved in a discussion about footplate duties etc. but am interested in the general suggestion that as volunteers we may be taking something out of the SVR. Surely any time spent as a volunteer in whatever department is putting something into the railway, not taking something out. Is there something different about the loco. department that means a volunteer can have a negative effect?
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hassell_a



Joined: 18 Sep 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffer wrote:
hassell_a wrote:
While I didn't do much work on locos (other than the standard sort of repairs that any driver should be capable of), I feel that I put back in as much as I take out of the SVR, and have 'earned' my entitlement to carry out footplate turns. In my non loco capacity, I'll be at Hampton Loade on Sunday helping to reinstate the railway so that we can actually have a gala in just over 2 weeks time (where I may even get a footplate turn....).


I don't want to get involved in a discussion about footplate duties etc. but am interested in the general suggestion that as volunteers we may be taking something out of the SVR. Surely any time spent as a volunteer in whatever department is putting something into the railway, not taking something out. Is there something different about the loco. department that means a volunteer can have a negative effect?


I don't know about aa 'negative effect', but perhaps more so in the loco than in other depts, I do think that it is a privilege to be allowed to take responsibility and operate these priceless pieces of equipment which have often been restored at great time and expense by others. So there is an expectation that crews should put something back into the railway in return. Which is what leads to the discussion going on here.

PS Sorry that this has gone off the 2857 topic a bit!
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All Comments and Opinions are my own and do not reflect those of SVR (Holdings) PLC, SVR Company Limited, or SVR Charitable Trust.
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xpc smooth



Joined: 22 Jun 2007
Posts: 323
Location: in front of a computer...obviously

PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bradleyman wrote:
Plenty of justification here re non MPD input into the wider SVR volunteer need & of course this is valuable but it is not a complete answer.

What it very neatly overlooks is the inescapable truth that enginemen who also participate in rebuilds & repairs will, over time, develop a far better understanding of the locos in their charge.

This leads to:
1. Greater respect & better treatment of motive power possibly leading to fuel economy
2. Far better ability to diagnose faults
3. Some ability to fix routine faults

All the above save the railway s, and contribute to a more reliable train service with possible spin offs in increased safety.

It is no coincidence that one of the most efficient train services in the world (Swiss Railways) is manned by Drivers who are REQUIRED to have served their time in a railway engineering context.

If everybody works elsewhere on the railway & then joins the MPD just to do footplate turns we are no further forward!!! (ignoring the even greater issue that some still appear to do ONLY footplate work).


Without disagreeing in any way with bradleyman's comments and with no axe to grind, I would point out that similar benefits are accumulated by working in other departments. For instance, my P. Way work has given me an intimate knowledge of the line, enabling me to "use the railway to drive the train," for maximum economy, plus a complete knowledge of every bit of the Railway, including sidings, signals, etc.

I know that, without going into specifics, one or two drivers have come a cropper, due to unfamiliarity with bits of the line, particularly at Bewdley, where the signalling can be "interesting." If you just come down for your x turns a year and run your two returns Bridgnorth - Kiddy, you cannot experience the Railways byways.

I am sure that the work that, for instance, hassell_a performs, when not on an engine, gives him a similar advantage.
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Buffer



Joined: 29 Sep 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This question does not relate to 2857 in particular but is posted here because the group has some very good pictures of the boiler repairs.
What are boiler patches used for, apart from the obvious answer, and why are they attached using rivets rather than by welding?
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